SEPTEMBER 20, 2008

DRINKING HABITS AND THE ECONOMY

Brian: Welcome to the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour and my name is Brian Fuji, here with Jill Mattingly. Today our topic is drinking habits and the economy. Before we get to that we will be mentioning Nation Recovery Month, next week, we have some special events.

Jill: National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month and we have been celebrating all month and our big celebration is on the 27^{th of September next Saturday and we will be doing the radio show there in our Norcross office with a lot of special guests. We are going to move the whole operation up there to our facility and you don’t want to miss is. Brian: We are so excited and a lot of folks wanting to get on radio!Jill: We are welcoming the public to come and sit in and listen to the show we will have some sharing and a lot of the people you have heard on the show will be there, Dr. Dutton, Dr. Johnston will all be there and we will have them commenting on the current events in recovery. Also, we welcome your calls also, we will be taking your calls and that will be real exciting.}

Brian: Also too, we will have discussion panels which I am very excited about because some of our staff will be there and also some individuals in recovery and we will be talking about how recovery has changed their lives and a lot of folks are going to want to hear that because a lot of people in the listening audience will be interested to know that. The questions can be answered and at Breakthrough we see people’s lives changed with the different sources of rehab in terms of education as well as counseling.

Jill: People walk through the door saying they have made the decision you can see lives turn around and when we do the show that is not going to be the only event on Saturday. We will be having an Open House and we will start at noon, you can come on in and see what we are about. We will have panel discussions and a few of us will be in involved in that and that doesn’t mean we are the only ones talking, we want discussion. We are going to start the first hour or so we will be discussing alcohol which seems to be one of the main things coming through our doors at Breakthrough. We will talk about new rehabs and Dr. Johnston will discuss medications for craving and if you have questions and want to ask some of our addictionologist that would be the day to do it. We will talk about the Matrix Model which we use in our rehab and that will connect the brain disease model of rehab with recovery and

Jill: A few more important things about the Recovery Month, if you go to the website for National Recovery Month.GOV, you can see our event listed as one of the event s in Georgia. Last week we had some guests from Georgia Recovery Residences, they were here talking on the show about their even this Wednesday actually for addiction professionals and uh, it is going to feature a wonderful speaker that we have here in Atlanta, Dr. Paul Early, I have heard him and he is fantastic. They are also having some booths set up and you will be there Brian?

Brian: Yes, we will be able to talk with folks about the services we offer and also try to find what else is going on in the community in recovery and networking is powerful.

Jill: What is recovery month? We have spent a lot of time talking about it this month, we have been trying to focus on this and celebrating people in long term recovery and show how it has empowered and motivated them and stress that substance use disorders are chronic diseases and should be treated as such. What we do is from a brain disease model in terms of alcoholism and drug addiction.

Brian: We know it is because people come in and alcohol detox and then they think they are fine. They have a few good sessions of individual therapy and we know because addiction is a chronic disease but ongoing aftercare and support or long periods of time is critical if recovery will be sustained.

Jill: About the middle of the week with Lehman and AIG and Merrill Lynch, all of these people losing jobs and uncertainty and their retirements and I started thinking what is happening in households where a person has been holding on to their recovery, holding on to that line of walking each day without relying on alcohol as self medication and I started thinking about people needing some encouragement today and need to know what an happen when they are faced with stressors and we want to do a show for those people today that are experiencing internal anxiety and stress. We also want to talk to those that have not made it into recovery and give you some hope and a pathway to choose to come out of that.

Brian; 770-226-0920 is the number. We are ready to talk with you about concerns you may have especially when stress hits we see this across the nation.

Jill: 770-226-0920 call if you are at home, in the car, comments questions but get in on the conversation. We will be talking about Drinking habits and the economy.

Commercial Break

Brian: Welcome back, 770-226-0920 that is the way to get in touch with us at the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour and today we are talking about drinking habits and the economy. A question for the listeners today is there a link between the economy and drinking alcoholic beverages.

Jill: I bet a lot of folks could call and give us the answer. On CNN.com there was a story a few days ago it wasn’t in the last three days with the economy tank or the market but I thought it was interesting that CNN picked up on this issue.

Brian: We know that when people experience stress especially opiate addicts one of the key factors for relapse is stress and especially also for those that are alcoholic and those struggling with alcohol, anger and depression are key factors in causing relapse. If a person is on a fixed income or maybe they are in a situation where they are planning to um, buy a new home or maybe thinking about trying to find a way to sell a home and then the economy drops and then add high unemployment, it increases both anger and depression. So when this occurs we have individuals find their drinking going up and they are taking more pills. I am sure in our audience right now there are some experiencing this.

Jill: It doesn’t mean that they are dependent on alcohol, it might mean that they are abusing the alcohol to get through this heightened time of stress. We know that in the brain when it is broken down it can produce the effect of calm and that is why many like to pop open the beer or wine when they get home from work you know around 5pm cause it doesn’t create gabba and that produces a calm effect. Well, when you have bad news and stress like this last week, I can see how the addiction of the alcohol as the calming agent could increase.

Brian: Indeed, again what you have just said is perfectly the reason why many people move from addiction to independence because it is mood altering. They feel sad or depressed and so they use.

Jill: 770-226-0920 that is the number to call you will reach us and we can talk a little bit on the air or if you have a comment about the economy and maybe what you have noticed around you, your favorite restaurant’s bar stools may be full earlier than normal and you know it stays packed. So, that is what this CNN article is all about. It was talking about in Manhattan’s financial district the bars were full at 6:30 PM during the week and that with stress you have a much more frequency with alcohol and problems that go with over addiction of it. So, I think that this article just really hits interesting points.

Brian: The question is that when they are under financial stress what does or the study actually shows that they do drink more alcohol and take a lot more of their mood altering substances such as pills or illegal substance. More and more are trying to cope with the stressors and you know one of the things that we try to work with at Breakthrough is helping those that have come through rehab and because you have people becoming more aware when they are clean and sober of their problems and then they need to know what to do with their issues.

Jill: You will see a lot more irritability and they might even be a little agitated about not having anything to calm me or make me feel better about my life and so you know having the person you know understand that coming off the substance is the first thing and then sticking with it and learning how to cope with each day and what you know your life circumstances bring you.

Brian: Not only coping but they have to develop new friendships and relationships. They have chosen not to drink or not to drug and because of that you know the people they hang around with have not come to that conclusion for themselves. So we really need to have the opportunity to be able to find those new individuals.

Jill: In this article about financial stress, that has been the name of the game in the last three or four days with the market. The financial stress is very interesting with gas prices going up and all of the things you have to start budgeting for because some of your income is going to more important things like food and gas and that type of thing. It does show in this study that people actually don’t stop buying alcohol even though they pay more for gas and need the extra money which I thought was kind of interesting, they aren’t choosing their Heineken they reach for tap. Interesting, if we went to the college game today we might do some research and see what they are tailgating with Shlitz?

Brian: You mentioned that

Jill: Do they still make that? Shlitz?

Brian: Again, going back to the study which is interesting because we do know that the area of unemployment has really gone sky high and people are facing tougher and tougher times trying to find jobs and one study indicates that for every five percent that the unemployment rate goes up there is an increase in 8% in binge drinking. Again the definition of binge is 4 to 5 beers or any drink at any one event that is a binge. I was at the ball game last night and there was a lot of binge drinking in front of me!

Jill: On that I can imagine. Here is what I was thinking Brian, when all of this started happening my heart was going out to the people in recovery and have been blindsided by financial burden or job stress like you were speaking of and I am thinking of ways we can encourage them to not turn to something like alcohol to help them through. I really wanted to just push that encouragement through the air waves you know you may have foreclosure or job stress, this is not the time to turn to alcohol because it will cause more of the stress that you are experiencing right now. Turning to alcohol is definitely going to be the opposite of what you need to do at this time.

Brian: We see this a lot, here is our number 770-226-0920 again 770-226-0920, you know I can see we are coming to a break and I would like to note that when people are depressed they first want to drink and then they feel the calm only for a short time and when that wears off the depression returns. We want to help the listeners today

Jill: We will be back after the break, if you are listening and want to comment on what we are talking about or you are in recovery and need encouragement we would be happy to give that to you today. 770-226-0920 we will be right back.

Commercial Break

Jill: Welcome back, 770-226-0920 that number again 770-226-0920. This is a call in show and this is Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, we are talking about drinking habits and the economy today. If the economy has blindsided you this week with financial stress or job stress or your housing situation you can give us a call and tell us how it has effected you and if it has caused you to want to behave in a way that would bring more pain and take meds or drink to get rid of the stress we want to talk to people today that are feeling that anxiety and that stress. We want to encourage them to not turn to something that could make everything worse.

I also want to remind you of our special event next Saturday at our location in Norcross, Georgia. We will be broadcasting our show live and you may even have a chance to be on the air, or maybe not, (laugh) if you have an opinion and you don’t want to sing or anything like that I guess you could ask a question. You can see our facilities, talk to the staff and see what we are doing up there. Brian you had an interesting take on this article and such,

Brian: One thing we see here is that whenever we see a ratcheting up of economic distress there will be a lot more drinking, etc., for every 5% of increase of unemployment there is an 8% increase in binge drinking and when we see a tough economy it causes people to rethink how they spend their money and they only have a limited amount of resources and they have food, clothing and they want to have fun. We ask the question, how do they do this? What we have found or the study has shown that they don’t necessarily stop buying food and providing but they realize that alcohol is the affordable luxury. So they still see it as luxury but it is considered affordable and something they can still have to make them feel better and that is what we want the audience to hear today. We know that alcohol and drugs are truly just a means by which people want to change their mood, if they are depressed the tendency is to go ahead and change it by using alcohol and drugs. At Breakthrough people come in and talk with us in a free consultation to anyone interested in trying to find out what kind of rehab is best for them, what are my options. One of the unique things we are doing right now that is really helping those that work daytime hours, we have an Intensive Outpatient Program from 6PM to 9PM on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday nights. First it is convenient when most are off of work and they don’t have to take vacation time they don’t have to worry about coming in and feeling like they have to stay in patient but it provides the opportunity to do the medication management and to be able to participate in the matrix model of day rehab where they are able to learn about how the brain becomes addicted and then how the brain heals. The brain does have an opportunity to heal and recovery is constantly ongoing because we need to know that the brain and the body can heal and people with liver problems or pancreatitis and they stay off the alcohol the body can rebound.

Jill: “You mentioned medication and there are anti craving medication and for some right now this may have gotten you through the last three days when you feel the stress ratcheting up as you look at the news and see the events. The medication can thwart the circuitry in the brain that is trying to get the behavior for you to use. Anti craving medication can be extremely valuable in times like this. I am so glad you are bringing up the evening programs and taking off work may not be an option these days and the boss won’t understand, so not wanting to shout to the world about rehabilitation we can keep this confidential and you meet the criteria this could be a very important program for you. When we come back let’s talk more about these beneficial programs. I want to talk about how family members can be helped when we get back. 770-226-0920 call us.

Commercial Break

Jill: 770-226-0920, the number is 770-226-0920 go ahead and call us today and talk to us about what is going on in your life in terms of the economy, finances, the housing and job realm, we are looking forward to hearing your story. If you are walking through this and know it will be ok, we want to encourage you. If you are struggling and want to talk to us that is great. If you would like to come see us in our office and have a free consultation we encourage you to do so to get you through this difficult time. We have been talking about the economy and drinking habits and problems staying in recovery during stressful times.

Brian: Many times people think becvause they have tough times that the drinking pattern may actually accelerate and some studies say that is not always the case especially related to socio economic status and stages and we find that the drinking pattern does not drop off as much on those on the higher economic scale but those on the lower will cut back in order to retain some semblance of economic stability and so we are seeing this difference already in the way that people’s earnings are being impacted it is kind of like the idea of housing, it is not so much the housing that is in the upper level the one million dollar homes, but for those in that medium income they seem to be the ones negatively impacted so again many people who are struggling uh, we may just think that they are successful because of the attractive or trappings but they are in reality. They may drink more because they can afford to. They are trying to deal with problems using the substance rather than cope with it in such a way that is more effective and less devastating.

Jill: There is not just one person in a home struggling. There is a family. A family being effected also, children, parents, all across the board and that brings me to wanting to say to the family members that listen. We have a family education program that is 10 week and it is powerful. One evening a week to help people deal with a loved ones problems with alcohol or drugs. Brian you run that program,

Brian: One of my greatest joys because I see family members eyes open up and they don’t understand how they got to this place and then of course there is a lot of anger and bitterness and frustration and it takes a lot of understanding and what this program does is open the subject and discuss for instance how a person that is not using live with a person who has an addiction. That is also powerful and when people begin to have to look at that reality and fact that although they are not using they still have someone they love and care about struggling.

Jill: You know in my mind’s eye I can picture last week when the market went down 400 points in one day, I could picture a father walking in and putting a bottle of vodka on the counter and deciding I have been sober for a year but this I can’t do and then pouring. The wife and the family looking at that and thinking about the rollercoaster ride they are about to get on as he starts to addiction alcohol again. I think of how I want people to know about our programs, even if your loved one does not want to come into rehab we can still offer it to the family to help them understand the disease. It doesn’t have to be the devastating tornado through the household.

Brian: Their lives are in chaos and now the question the family asks is why do ours have to be. So in the family education we really help our family members to understand the stages of families in addiction and many will deny this, and the point is that they are as you said Jill, experiencing the negative impact that is being created by the person that is drinking and that person is saying that that is not their intention.

Jill: And, when the family members decide well, we are going to get help for your problem, that will sometimes turn the person around and make them think they should do something too. It is a very powerful statement when the family gets the care they need. We are getting to the next break and we will talk a bit more about our programs so stay with us. In these times it may just be the thing a family needs so call us 770-226-0920, we will give more numbers out in the next segment for how you can get some help.

Commercial Break

Jill: Welcome back to the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, 770-226-0920 is the number to call with your questions or comments as we continue to discuss addiction issues today with the economy and problems with increased drinking and I want to encourage all of you once more that if this is happening in your family that you would seek help today and give us a call at Breakthrough Addiction Recovery, or go to a meeting if that helps you but do something today to help get yourself through the next 24 hours without abusing if you can. Now, I also want to remind everyone that if they want to meet Brian and I next week at the remote broadcast in Norcross in our offices, and it is going to be next Saturday the 27th. From 12 – 4:30 we will have panel discussions and food and the broadcast from 3 to 4pm. A few give away that day and we are also going to have goodies available and it will be neat to meet the listeners and not just those we pay to listen. We have a call, Ellen in Ellenwood,

Ellen: Thanks for having me, um, I have a 22 year old daughter that is an oxycontin addict and has been through many rehabs including one here in Georgia and now she is taking cold medicine and I am at my wits end cause I you know jail is unpleasant and I don’t want her to go back but she just won’t get better.

Brian: Again, addiction is a tremendous long term chronic problem and it is let me ask you Ellen, is she receiving any after care help. Does she have support.

Ellen: Yes she has been in intensive out patient a

Brian: Prior to that did she have a counselor or support group

Ellen: She has off and on through the process and she was in and out of jail of half way houses rehabs,

Jill: Is she on any medications like suboxone or anything like that to help her.

Ellen: She was but she used it to get rid of the dope sickness to get her next fix.

Jill: Now it is cold medicine to help keep her

Ellen: She likes to get high and it is legal

Jill: That is a very intense statement. She likes to get high.

Brian: That is what addicts do, and until that is where more long term counseling we do know this Ellen unless they stay in long term counseling where they are able to talk about what is going on with issues and develop coping skills uh, it’s very difficult to stay off those types of medications that cause them to get that mood change.

Jill: Working with her counselor if there is any headway in terms of getting down to the reason why she wants to escape and why she wants to continue getting high. Ellen I hope we have helped a little bit but we are at the end of the show. We would like to invite you to come out next Saturday and sit down with someone and talk more about this.

Brian: I will trim my nails

Jill: There you go, we want to meet you and it is going to be a very good time. We appreciate you listening today

Brian: We will see you next week

Jill: The support slice is building that spiritual program so what we come down to is looking at the approach to treating the addiction as treating the mind, body and spirit. We have talked about nutrition, medication and medicine, this program today we are going to start looking at what the spiritual program can be built when it comes to recovery and what we are recognizing is that this is a pluralistic society and there are many ways to reach out for a spiritual connection and many paths that people try and we are going to take a portion of that whole pluralistic society and most is Judeo-Christian and with AA being founded on those principles, we will talk about building that program from the eyes and words of maybe a Christian program. So we will look at that today and we will also have time next week to look at other types of programs that a person can build for themselves also. We are at the end of this segment and I want to remind you that this is a call in show and I know you could be formulating questions or ideas so the number you can call is 770-226-0920 again it is, 770-226-0920. Now if you would like to listen live on the computer www.920wgka.com and hit listen live. Stay with us and we will be back talking about another aspect of the spiritual program and try to get some of these questions answered. Stay with us.Commercial Break

Grady: What an interesting time to speak of it. For those who watched the Saddleback forum in politics, that church is where it began with Rick Warren. It was started in 1991 by Rick who wrote the Purpose Driven Life and John Walker and in that church alone out of that one church over 7000 people have gone through this program. Success is just tremendous.

Jill: Grady I thank you so much for calling us and giving us another interesting resource, I think that a lot of people don’t know there is something like this out there to help not only with addictions but with life problems, so we really do appreciate it and I hope you have a wonderful day and thanks again for calling in. Jeff, in just talking about the resources, when people do come to you and are talking about you know how they are struggling with alcohol and I feel like I can’t talk to anyone else about this, what is the first thing that you start with as a pastor

Jeff: Usually we start with a, well, going back again to formation of beliefs to come to a place where you understand that you are loved that God does love you and find you acceptable through Christ that you know, we talked a bit about self-worth and the saying is that something is worth what someone else will [pay for it and from a Christian perspective we have been bought with a price and so we can always look at this as this is who I truly am and God dictates what I am worth. So this way you know that you are not a hopeless loser, you are a beloved child of God as a believer in Christ.

Jill: So this is something someone could find in their own church and go to a pastor or lay leader and ask for help with this type of need.

Lois: Many churches have their own counseling centers that are Christ centered and are there and reach out to not only members of their own denomination but the community, and uh, explore the spiritual need that they have and the spiritual hurt.

Jill: Looks like we are at another break so what I would like to do is give the number 770-226-0920 and if you uh, want to call and comment or ask a question we would love to hear from you, so stay with us we will be right back.

Commercial Break

Jill: We are back and the number is 770-226-0920, Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, and we are talking about approaches to helping a person or yourself in recovery we have been talking about the perverbial addiction or addiction addiction treatment pie and this is not a cooking show as I stated earlier but the pie has segments of or facets that need to be addressed the physical, the psychiatric, the psychological and the support and we haven’t even gotten to the family slice of the pie and we do that many times in this show about helping families address dependencies and addictions in their family and how it effects the family as a whole but also the family can act as a support system for the person going through an addiction, when we came down to it we started talking about the support slice and how building a spiritual program can many times address a very big part of how a person can get through recovery and stay in recovery and so we have asked Pastor Jeff Earle today and Dr. Lois Dutton is also my co-host. We have been talking about how you build a spiritual program in recovery and for many people there are many different views and today we are coming from a Judeo Christian viewpoint and so Lois at the break we spoke of pain and when someone is in pain they are much likely to seek out and that may be could be through someone in the church or a pastor you know uh, talk about how that may happen like hypothetical situation.

Lois: Many times what we see in this whole beginning to recognize the throws of addiction that people start down this journey as a result um, the pain that the addiction has caused in their lives and it is not only the physical and the psychological but the pain they feel deep inside in their spirit and that is generally in all of my years of experience is what I see being the most likely catapult into addiction treatment is when they are hurting enough spiritually inside and negated so many important relationship like family and those with friends with that basic basic support system and they really are needing a kind of conversation that will help them heal and they will very often turn to their church and when they do they will go to the pastor or to a leader in the church or some friend and um, those that’s usually the first step.

Jeff: What I have found is that a lot of times it can work the opposite. Some will feel as if they don’t want the pastor to know and then he will have a dim view of them that he might well, so many times there is a performance based track and we put up the mask and the appearance of everything being right and although there is spiritual and psychological pain no one will ever know. And so the last thing they want to do is reveal it to the church so they hide it which causes it to magnify even more inside because then they become hopeless, they ask where to go or where to turn

Jill: Would you tell someone to talk to their pastor?

Jeff: Well yes, in certain cases

Jill: Really, because some come into our program that are like not wanting anyone to know what they are struggling with and for many people I will tell them that they are here and they are getting their addiction treatment needs addressed, but it is interesting that that could weigh on them if they don’t get into a truthful situation with someone.

Jeff: A lot of times it is driven by a, for a lack of better words, a lack of trust in the pastor, they are afraid and don’t think they can reveal this thing that is going on inside of them because of the appearances and they don’t trust him enough to lovingly embrace them and say I understand and let’s find a solution and correct your belief processes that have brought you here.

Lois: It really does Jeff, it goes back to what you said of them having bruised and battered self image and the sense of self worth that it is difficult to open your heart and lay it out for scrutiny um, even by the people who are in the strongest spiritual positions in our lives like the pastors and counselors and like our family members. It is very difficult to open up, it is easier to have Jill look at my liver enzymes because those are factual kinds of things I can have excuses for but if I come to you and speak of my shame and degradation that I feel and the remorse and the regret and how nobody could possibly love me because I don’t like who I am, I have violated everything that is important to me my sense of integrity and character all of those deep inside me for which our psychiatrist is not going to have a prescription for but the prescription is going to lie in the way that I handle that deep hurt and that would be coming to someone like you Jeff that I know will not judge me and not condemn me,

Jill: Well that is a wonderful way to put it Lois, I think I understand now, you know what someone is dealing with on the inside, there are so many things not just to heal the liver but heal what the spirit is going through too. That is one of the reasons we have found that this is a complex situation cause there are so many ideas and thoughts about a spiritual program and today we are looking at this from the Judeo Christian aspect and I hope that you are getting something out of this and when we come back we will have a few more questions for Pastor Jeff and let him go back to Acworth. Stay with us, 770-226-0920 we will be right back.

Commercial Break

Jill: I like to look at it as the self medication for those deep down hurts and also the self medication for anxiety and co-occurring problems, and at Breakthrough if someone requests a spiritual approach to helping them you know we want you to know that we will uh, recommend resources in the community your church if that is something that you want to pursue. Sometimes Jeff is called on and he is a wonderful pastoral counselor and I think that you have really made a difference in people’s lives by being available to those struggling.

Jeff: Thanks

Jill: I want to say um, with such a complex issue as this there is a lot of emotion and passion that surrounds this I think it is just going to have to be looked at and then you start to find the person that can help you build that program and it doesn’t have to be a cookie cutter approach,

Lois: That is one of the things that sets Breakthrough apart, as each person comes in we don’t give everyone the same pill and tell them to sin no more kind of thing, we try to take the time to really pick apart what the person needs and we have a whole year of a program and our aftercare program is around for a year and we don’t make any promises to people and we just can not do that and we have learned that is not the way to approach people.

Jill: I have seen amazing response to that approach for the time I have been at Breakthrough. So, we tried to tackle it Lois, we tried building the spiritual program and you can always call us in Norcross at 770-734-8091, check the website. We will be back next week.

AUGUST 16, 2008

Brian: Welcome Atlanta to the Breakthrough Addicition Recovery Hour, I am Brian Fujii your host for the hour and hope you are having a wonderful day. There is a lot of activity in Atlanta today and hope you are keeping yourself safe and we have a wonderful show set up for you and today we are going to be talking about spirituality and recovery. You may wonder what that has to do with recovery but you will learn a lot today of how spirituality plays a critical role in staying clean and sober. My guest today is Leslie and she has a lot of recovery under her belt and so we have her to talk with us about the topic. Welcome Leslie,

Leslie: Thanks so glad to be here

Brian: We will be discussing how our spiritual component, we get confused sometimes between religion and spirituality, how do you look at it?

Leslie: Well, I think that it is different for everyone but I don’t think um, in recovery spirituality is looked at as a path um, and I would like to preface before speaking that I am not an expert on recovery or spirituality and this is my experience. Um, I don’t think that religion is necessary for recovery but it can certainly can be integrated into recovery, I believe recovery promotes spirituality because of the open ended path that allows for each person to have their own unique experience with their religion or how they relate to a higher power and how they come to believe in a higher power where it is a little less dogmatic and a little less close ended because the nature of alcoholics and addicts is that they are very defiant.

Brian: Yes, in that area of denial and minimizing, you know I read an article that said an addict still using has a strong tendency toward self centeredness. Everything is about them, everything is revolving around them. Then at some point they have to realize that that kind of thought process really begins to interfere with the significant relationships in their lives. As you begin looking at recovery, it is trying to realize that there are others in your world and how they need in some way to begin re-integrating themselves back into those meaningful relationships. Many times in addiction treatment a lot of our clients will say that they know they have a problem but I have a problem with trust. The big thing is that their family has no trust in them anymore and there is a void a huge gap and I think spirituality helps address the concept

Leslie: It is said often that believing in something bigger than ourselves. If I am the center of the universe then that doesn’t leave me very open to build relationships and look outside of myself for any purpose. For family or for job or my community anything like that so I think that what that does more than anything is that it really gets people to if they have a connection with God it is much easier in my experience to have a connection with others.

Brian: I think that idea is a real key component because we find that people through boredom, isolation or lonliness has nothing to do with connectivity and as a result the tendency to self medicate and feel better. This is a call in show and we would love to have your opinion and this may be a topic that you would like to talk about and give us a call and participate and the discussion, 770-226-0920 again that number is 770-226-0920 and if you are outside the Atlanta area it is 888-920-2625. We are learning here about connectedness and I think that is certainly one of the major issues in addiction is that more and more a person moves into addiction the more and more isolated they become.

Leslie: Yes, that is my experience,

Brian: Do they feel more depressed? More anxiety?

Leslie: For me, I felt a lot of anger, um, for me when I was isolating myself and getting into the depths of my alcoholism and addiction and it was more about handling everything myself and being independent and fixing all of my own problems and I didn’t need anyone. My family is extremely supportive and loving and I didn’t want anything to do with them on that level, but I think a lot of that comes from shame and I know for me a lot comes from shame because the principles I had before drinking and using had gone away by the time I was in the depths of my using. I was ashamed of that and everyone around me that knew me before could see that in me, so I did not want them around and so it was a lot of anger and that is actually what ended leading me to my spirituality because in the beginning people would say try relying on God for that for little and big things, I would think that couldn’t work, I did try anyway and tried to look at others lives that had their act together. That happened over and over until I started to believe it myself. I would rely on God for something because it had worked in the past so maybe it will work again, and now I know that it will work,

Brian: It becomes a part of you right. As we begin to experience that relationship and the ability to communicate and connect with that spiritual component of ourselves, we really begin to have a confidence and the ability to have that inner peace that comes about when you have that because you don’t feel as if you carry the burden yourself.

Leslie: Absolutely, I talk about it being the hustle in my head when I am trying to figure out if what I want to do is in my own will or if I want to do God’s will and when I stop that arguing back and forth trying to justify it and find an excuse and have that sense of inner peace, then I know that it is God’s will.

Brian: This topic may be hitting a nerve so give us a call, 770-226-0920 or outside our area, 888-920-2625. Today our friend Leslie is with us discussing spirituality playing a role in recovery and she has a lot of recovery time under her belt and has gone through the throws of moving from isolation and abandonment and guilt and shame and so we do know it deals with self esteem. We are getting close to the break so let’s take a look at that piece of how guilt and shame impacts a person’s self esteem and how that sometimes moves them to self medicate to feel better, ok? The number here is 770-226-0920 and give us a call we would love to have you as a part of this discussion and we will be right back after the break.

Commercial Break

Brian: Make sure that if you try to get into the park today that you go to the Celebrate Wellness Pavillion and go by our booth, later on in the show, my co hort there is going to give us a call and an update as to what is going on at our booth. So, if you are on your way to the Celebrate Freedom stop by and look at some of the items we have there. Ok, Leslie, I appreciate again you being with us, spirituality and recovery we were at the close of the first break what we had talked about was the feeling of guilt or shame that one feels so many times when they are using and I know that many times tied to that is this feeling of perfectionism. I have got to be good enough and I know that many times the people I work with have that feeling that they are not good enough or smart enough and can’t do things well enough and therefore the guilt or feeling of low self esteem creeps in and until they can address that what we find out is that they move to self medication. Take a look at this idea of recovery and then having that spiritual component to help redefine us because after all we are a complete human being when you look at that.

Leslie: For me growing up I never felt good enough and I could not tell you why I didn’t because it did not come from my family I briefly in my teens started going to church on my own and the way I interpreted it was that I needed to be perfect and that was not the churches fault, it was a wonderful church it was just they way I had interpreted it and I have always been very resistant to asking for help and so when I found drugs and alcohol not that long after I started having trouble interpreting what the church was trying to teach me and it took away that feeling of needing to be perfect and then I didn’t care but getting sober I still again that feeling of not being good enough returned and I could not tell you what good enough was and I knew I did not feel that way. So, the way and this is sort of come to me over the years, um, and just to let people know um, I have not had a drop of alcohol since December of 1994 and no drugs since April of 1995. It has taken me quite some time to get to this point of how I believe but the way I believe about spirituality and God now is um, I believe that if I do my best and I have to be reasonable with myself on what my best is, but if I do my best in every situation I learn from it and try to do different next time and I feel I have approval from God and no other approval is bigger for me. I believe that with all of my heart and I believe that in my gut and what I believe in my head that I am trying to get into my heart and gut is that God loves me and approves of me all the time no matter what. Right now it is in my head and I don’t know why it is in my heart

Brian: That is a perfect example of how differences between and real healthy spirituality and in contrast to what we may call toxic faith where so many people have this preconceived notion that all that their spirituality consists of is just the injection whereas where you have genuine spirituality we realize that it is acceptance and love and understanding and compassion.

Leslie: And I do think that that is the teaching of many religious practices but I believe it is interpreted a bit askew from the love and acceptance or how you can achieve that.

Brian: When you think like what you said initially that when you yourself feel you are not good enough or smart enough, then those particular feelings of rejection and non acceptance really is something fabricated from within because we don’t feel good about ourselves, not because of our spiritual component but reality is that many times when we don’t feel good about ourselves we ascribe those attributes to someone else that we consider is judging us rather than liking us just the way we are,.

Leslie: I have a friend that says God thinks she is the coolest thing since sliced bread and I love that.

Brian: Hey, we have Jill on the phone from the festival,

Jill: Hey Brian the traffic getting here was not as bad but it is huge! They have got all of the bands going on there are people everywhere and the special Wellness Pavilion is amazing with exhibitors um, people are everywhere Brian and it has been an exciting day.

Brian: Do we have a lot of those people coming by?

Jill: You know when someone walks by they stand there for a minute then all of a sudden say how they would like to share something about a friend or a parent. It opens up all sorts of doors to talk about people with the struggle of addiction and there are so many here where it touches their lives in one way or another.

Brian: Being out there and exposed I think to know that we are a resource for this area and those that are struggling is probably an eye opener and a lot of folks don’t know how addiction treatment can be provided.

Jill: WGKA has a huge booth out here and they were doing some live shows and the morning drive guy Joel was talking and it was kind of exciting and 104.7 FISH, Mercy Me and a lot of great bands, if you are heading this way, ignore the traffic and come on out for an evening of free music and come by and see us at our booth here in the Wellness Pavilion.

Brian: What are the hours for the event?

Jill: Actually it started early this morning they had a huge crowd because Third Day played early and now it will go to about 10 or 11 tonight. So if you come down now listen to WGKA all of the way and it is going to be fun because it is getting more and more crowded as the day goes on and it is a light happy atmosphere and they are having fireworks after the concerts.

Brian: Well Jill we are at the break and I just know that we will continue to let people know about the booth and it is right there in that pavilion. I will keep pushing it.

Jill: We are giving away some music cds for folks in recovery with some encouraging music. It helps in the journey, so come on down everyone.

Brian: Thanks for the call.

Commercial Break

Brian: What can we focus on in our last few minutes? Let’s ask you to come back after the break what one or two of those values you have found very important to you personally to maintain sobriety. 770-226-0920 we will be right back.

Commercial Break

Brian: Welcome back to Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, my name is Brian Fujii and we are sharing on the topic of spirituality and recovery. You know before that last break we had a call from Jill Mattingly at the Conyers Horse Park where they are celebrating freedom, so if you are on your way, join us at the booth and I know Jill would be so happy to hear from you. Leslie, as we came to the break you read off a wonderful list of qualities that I know many people struggle with in their areas of recovery because going back again to values, one of the things we have seen in addiction treatment is that as people move into addiction many times their values are compromised and then their relationships also and so many times people come in to addiction treatment and they are feeling so bad because you know now they are either struggling at home or at work and children can feel detached and alienated and so this list that you read about recovering some of the key core values are so critical in helping people to re-establish their own feelings of self esteem because we know that when people are in this area of addiction, self esteem gets diminished. How did that list that you read could you share one or two that are significant.

Leslie: Well I think the first one for me was really significant was honesty because not only was I lying to others but the person I lied to the most was myself and in trying to get better in anything that I was trying to accomplish if I wasn’t honest with myself I was not from a realistic platform and not looking at what the problem really is then how am I ever going to work on it. Um, so for me that was a huge one. The other was my favorite was humility and I have um, a great quote about humility “Humility is an honest appraisal of who and what we really are followed by sincere attempt to become what we could be.” That is something I keep in mind on a daily basis most days.

Brian: We have to have that vision of what we could be and strive for it, I know that is certainly one of the areas or the major is humility when people are in the throws of addiction it is truly as in the beginning essential self centeredness as if the world revolves around the addict and until then when they realize that there are others in the world to help us and support us and give us that sense of well being that we know we can have, we isolate ourselves from the real source. 770-226-0920 again, 770-226-0920 is the phone number to call and get in on this engaging conversation.

Another area Leslie is you know, what is security, we talk about people saying that they do not feel secure or feel like they are floating they don’t feel anchored especially in addiction when individuals are trying to find a sense of centeredness and the way they feel that they are in some way um, anchored instead of feeling that they are just scattered. I sense a scatteredness and in that there is a desire to try to find focus and without focus we find people using in order for them to get that focus. When you look at the word security it comes along with part of the list you gave to us, um, I am wondering what it is that when people look at security are they afraid of it being destroyed or what is it? Are they afraid of clean and sober?

Leslie: That is where the honesty comes in. My security is based on the knowledge and belief that I have that God is always there for me. Um, you know and that God is excited when I am excited and if I am kind of strained from what I know is the right thing for me to do, he just waits for me to turn around and ask his help. I think the only thing that could destroy me is if I turn my back on God and I know that it is very difficult for people to in recovery but I have seen people survive deadly diseases and I have seen people survive disaster and people losing their children in recovery and then stay sober through all of these things.

Brian: How do they do it. It is so difficult when a life circumstance and they feel victimized and in that victimization they feel that something or someone has done it to them again and so in that victimization how can we help our audience maybe to realize that you know problems do occur whether you are drinking or drugging or not. One of the things I share is that just because you stop does not mean life’s problems go away, in fact they could get more intense because of your sobriety.

Leslie: That is where a lot of people get off track because of the intense and immense grief, and a lot of addicts you know we don’t want to feel um, and so very strong feelings like that I can see how they can be overwhelming and what get’s them through is faith.

Brian: We are coming to the break Leslie let’s dovetail on that because faith comes from within and not without and it is something that we must realize is an inner resource, 770-226-0920. We will be right back.

Commercial Break

Brian: Again Leslie, recovery truly is not an “I” program it is a “We” program because many think they can do it on their own and they have tried their best to do it that way and I would say to the audience that you need to stop doing it that way, it doesn’t work so try something else. A community that is in recovery you have a support group as we do called Smart Recovery on Thursdays from 6 – 7 pm and it is a growing amazing group. They are supportive and call each other on the other stuff. It is a wonderful experience and also many as they come through the program to understand the addiction and the medical aspects of their addiction and how their brains have changed it has changed lives because information is powerful, so as we take a look at this whole concept of recovery and we understand that people need to turn back to the core values that is going to be a key as people take that as one other component helping themselves stay clean and sober. We are at the end of our show and so to our audience what would be one thought you could leave with them to help someone that is struggling today.

Leslie: I think that God is with us all the time we just have to call on him.

Brian: Thank you very much and I hope you have gotten something out of our program. If you are on I20 headed to the Horsepark go by and say hi to Jill at the Celebrate Wellness Pavilion. We will be back next week. Take Care.

AUGUST 9, 2008

NUTRITION AND RECOVERY

Jill:  Welcome to the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, My name is Jill Mattingly I will be your host today and joining me once again is Dr.

Lois Dutton, welcome

Lois,

Lois:  It is so good to be here, a beautiful day, I did my 6 miles on the trail and it was gorgeous!

Jill:  You just made me speechless, that brings me to the first item, the Olympics.  You could be a speed walker right? 

Lois:  I… don’t think so (laugh) I didn’t say that I split the concrete, I just said I walked.

Jill:  Well, Dr. Dutton who I will refer to as  

Lois, we are going to talk a bit more about nutrition and I was speaking with

Lois and our engineer Gene and we had the Olympics on in the studio and how the whole world tuned in to see the Bejing opening ceremony last night,  did you see it

Lois?

Lois:  No, I didn’t

Jill:  Well then the whole world saw it and you didn’t.  (laugh)  Ok, well I just I am an Olympic freak

Lois:  I blew that one out of the water huh?

Jill:  Ok, you and me Gene.  Anyway back in 1996 I was an EMT at the Olympics and got to work the Georgia Dome, maybe I shouldn’t say this being in

Atlanta and someone may hunt me down for this but I did hang from the rings on the gymnastics floor.

Lois:  Really? 

Jill:  Do you know how high those rings are?  A guy had to lift me and I looked like an elephant being hoisted up to the rings, they had to hoist me and I hung from them and got my picture taken and I hung from the uneven bars, but I don’t think the paramedics were supposed to do that but we had a blast

Lois:  I tell you Gene, these are the things memories are made of

Jill:  I did not sleep for 2 weeks that summer, it was so much fun.

Lois:  You really are a freak when it comes to the Olympics

Jill:  I watched the first gold medal ceremony this morning and we won the first one for fencing and a female and it was a sweep.  The females from the

US won the gold, silver and bronze and I was so proud.  Anyway, we are going to get back to our subject today at Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, we are talking about nutrition and how it applies to the care of someone that is struggling with a addiction on a substance such as alcohol or other drugs, a lot of times much of the things we look up on the internet about nutrition and addiction focus in on alcohol and there isn’t much that talks about opiates but we are trying to make this as general as possible so that it will help anyone that is struggling with addiction because it is tied back into brain chemistry and that is something that relies heavily on adequate nutrition. 

Lois:  Most any kind of toxic substance Jill, we know has the same kind of short circuiting in the brain chemistry and as such one of the natural ways to try and help replenish and restore and get back on an even keel is through good solid nutrition

Jill:  That is why we devoted the shows last week and this week to nutrition.  If you have someone to call and tell them to listen to what we have to say and you can call in and get in on the conversation and ask questions, call 770-226-0920 that number again is 770-226-0920 hold on to that number because later on we will give something away, I am in the Olympic mood, not my gold medal from 1974

Lois:  Not a stalk of broccoli or cauliflower

Jill : I would love to give something away, keep the number handy and I will be hopefully giving something away later on today

Lois:  Just give us a call

Lois:  That is a good ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS term.  Yes,

Jill:  What we would like to do is get further into deconstruction of how nutrition needs to be approached and construct a good understanding of how nutrition effects addiction recovery.

Lois:  To recap quickly, we know the basics that the body needs in order to nourish itself and stay healthy and alive and it’s most of the building blocks have not changed over time and they are still the ones we knew when we did the pyramid and the basic three and now we look at some six or seven different building blocks we need to stay healthy, and the number one is water and it is the universal solvent we need it in the system and an adult needs two or three huge gallons of water every day.  It’s not you can’t take a six pack of pop and get the same amount of hydration that you need with good solid water,.  The other three are carbohydrates, protein, fats, and vitamins, minerals and special supplements that we get through our intake many of these substances Jill are the things that we need to take naturally in our day to day food content and

Jill:  What are the percentages, many times they throw out how much of each you are supposed to have, just start foundationally what are the normal percentages someone should take in to get the right amount of protein fats and carbs.

Lois:  We have come up with in our research, we are like 20% of our intake should be protein, 30% fat and 50% carbohydrates, most of which needs to be complex carbohydrates and we will talk more about that when we return from the break.

Jill:  We are going to break and I want you to call this number to get in on the nutrition discussion, 770-226-0920, that number is 770-226-0920 call in let’s talk.

Commercial Break

Jill:  Welcome back to the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour, that number for comments or questions is 770-226-0920 and at our break we were watching more of the Olympics and I was catching some slack for being an Olympic freak and if you are one you can call and commiserate with me, cause I think we have a lot of people that don’t catch the flame if you will, ok?  I actually was a fencer in high school and I quit because my teacher was French and would slap we with the saber when I messed up so I quit.  I could have been holding the medal!  Ok, so we are back talking about nutrition and addiction and I have to get my head wrapped around nutrition

Lois,

Lois:  I don’t know where we go from here, we just can not top talking about Jill being a fencer when she was a youngster and you know I know her as this um, very accomplished high powered and never knew you were a fencer,

Jill:  Yes, ninth grade won a big trophy and everything,

Lois:  I can see that concentration and piercing kind of demeanor that you have sometimes

Jill:  Gene is typing En guard on the screen.  Ok, we are back with nutrition and we stopped last segment with the building blocks and the percentages that are needed so let’s bring it home and talk about how does this apply to substance addiction specifically alcohol and other types of drug addiction and what I usually like to talk about is starting off with malnutrition, malnutrition means bad nutrition and there are a couple types of mal nutrition there is primary malnutrition when you are not taking in any type of nutrition at all, you have stopped eating or have a disease process that doesn’t allow you to eat but nothing is coming in, the secondary is actually the fact that you just can’t use what you are eating and this is what we see many times when people come in for addiction treatment and usually a person that is into malnourished state because of liver disease or something like that you will see them at the hospitals and find out that they are in advanced stages of the disease and you can have secondary malnutrition by being a long term alcohol dependent person and having liver involvement which means that the liver which is so important for so many functions especially the metabolizing of the food that you were just talking about.  When the liquor is not working you are not breaking down and metabolizing what you are eating correctly.  And therefore it is useless to you.

Lois:  Absolutely, even though each of these building blocks, the proteins the cars, the fats, have various mechanisms involved in the metabolism ultimately they all end up in the liver and the liver is the workhorse and is the primary organ that kind of makes the discerning hum decisions if you will of how it will utilize and what it will do with the foods and substances you put into it. 

Jill:  We see all of the important chemical actions going on in the liver and we also see that when the liver starts to fail so many other places in the body fail also and one that you would never think is the brain.  You can actually develop alcoholic dementia or what we call a wet brain because of liver failure because of long term alcohol use.  Most think of cirrhosis and that is a whole subject that is tackled during our day addiction treatment we talk a lot about liver damage just about 75% of those that come through the door go through our medical intake and have the blood work done we find elevated liver functions telling us that there is a process underway in terms of the liver starting to throw up the red flag to say there is an emergency and many times once you stop the offending substance such as alcohol you will see the liver enzymes or the labs we look at start to correct themselves very quickly

Lois:  It is a very forgiving organ to a point and beyond that point however, she and we call her “she” because she is complicated and does a lot of work

Jill:  We are talking about the liver,

Lois:  Carries a lot of weight, from womb to tomb the liver is always there and if she is out of sorts then everyone else is, so it is extremely important that uh, people understand and what we do in our psycho education is disease management concept, the more information we can give everyone about the process that they are undergoing the better able they are to manage it as they go down the road. 

Jill:  The number to call is 770-226-0920 I am giving it out because I am thinking of a friend that was speaking of her father that struggled with alcoholism and was hospitalized with liver failure and thank God he went through uh, program got away from the alcohol still had enough of his liver functioning that he was able at least to have another 10 to 15 years of life and what is so important is to understand that there is liver damage that is going on under the radar and if you do have a loved one that is drinking daily and they are drinking at the amounts that we talk about here on the show which does lend itself to addiction encourage them to have a doctor that they see regularly watch those liver functions because they will probably do more sensitive testing on the liver also possibly an ultrasound to determine if there is any other damage and ultimately a liver bIntensive Outpatientsy to find cirrhosis and it reminds me of her saying that she wanted to call us.  He was malnourished because his liver was not functioning properly, you know the way a person looks when they are struggling with liver disease, they look like they have a huge stomach, huge, and you think they look plenty nourished but if you look at their extremities their arms and legs are stick thin and usually what this is is not just liver disease and enlargement and shrinkage but it can be a fluid build up in the abdomen and because they gain weight doesn’t mean that they are becoming nourished.  So that is a scary thing if you see someone with that type of body structure and a heavy drinker they need to be seen and watched by their physician.

Lois:  We are talking though Jill about individuals that are long term users and have addictiond the liver for quite some time the early part of that I think is also important to talk about and you do a good job of that in psycho education about alcoholic hepatitis and the ultimate which is cirrhosis, would you mention a bit about that.

Jill:  Just a few minutes ago we talked about the elevated enzymes and those give us the first clue that something might be going on here, it can go into fatty liver and you start to get the fatty tissue laid down within the liver that can be seen by ultrasound and when you palpate you can feel that the liver is enlarged and that tells us something needs to be done now before continuing into the next phase which is alcoholic hepatitis which is an inflamation of the liver and you can create that by having a diseased liver from alcohol addiction, when you get to this you can see the jaundice and all of the other things that go along with hepatitis and after that

Lois, it is pretty much a progression into cirrhosis and is pretty scary

Lois:  Up to that we can reverse but beyond a certain point it is that point of no return.

Jill:  770-226-0920 if you have a question about liver disease and maybe it has affected you or a loved one, we will try to answer that and how it pertains to alcohol use and nutrition.  770-226-0920, stay with us we will be right back.

Commercial Break

Jill:  Welcome back, 770-226-0920 it is the Breakthrough Addiction Recovery Hour and I am with Dr.

Lois Dutton and we are helping people understand a bit about nutrition and to give the disclaimer, we are not registered dieticians or nutritionists, we have gathered information from amazing people and want to facilitate some knowledge.  We have a great book that we have worked from called Seven Weeks to Sobriety and we will talk about it in the next segment.  We have a call this is Dari in

Atlanta, how are you,

Dari:  My mom, I am from

EthIntensive Outpatientia and she lives there and has fatty liver problems what nutrition is good for her?

Lois:  Is you mom a drinking?

Dari:  No, and she is not smoking.

Lois:  There are different kinds of liver problems and one is nutritional in and of itself, what we put into our bodies sometimes the liver will respond and become unhealthy as a result of the intake the foods and that kind of thing, but we have got some um, kinds of supplements in the vitamins that we use at Breakthrough that we give our clients that are very helpful in helping to reverse some of this and we could recommend to you that we do some things like um, the B-complex vitamins and what is very important is an element called selenium, and a natural product called milk-thistle that has a substance that is extremely helpful with the liver and we would recommend that you try the B-complex and the selenium and the milk-thistle and all of those are easy to come by so it is not like you have to search and search to find them. 

Dari:  Thank you so much.

Lois:  You are quite welcome.

Jill:  That is a good point, fatty liver is a manifestation of liver disease and it doesn’t have to be in combination with alcohol.

Lois:  We know a lot of individuals who develop cirrhosis that is nutritional and have never consumed alcohol but have had some type of faulty metabolism or bad dietary habits.

Jill:  What we wanted to touch on were the building blocks from earlier and what goes on with each one of those when they are not used, or have been put into the diet, and what can happen when you addiction a substance like alcohol and even though you take those things in you don’t use them correctly.  The first is protein, obviously if you don’t take in protein you will see wasting away of the body.

Lois:  It is the body building of our intake and protein the amino acids that are in particularly animal protein are so vital Jill to keeping the whole biochemistry in the brain going because many of these amino acids at least three of four we know for sure are precursors to the neurotransmitters that we need in the brain that we know substances have a tendency to destroy. 

Jill:  Right, think about it, neurotransmitters like serotonin, or dopamine, if you are not taking in the right amount of amino acids in your diet, protein one of the building blocks, you are not going to be able to build your own neurotransmitters, so we can see how that will be related possibly to um, wanting to use a substance to substitute or to help the dopamine along.  Some of the psychiatrists, I went to a really good presentation on neurobiology of addiction and he talked about L-Tyrosine which is a type of amino acid using a supplement at GNC to help you with formation of dopamine.  Now I don’t recommend you go out and buy L-Tyrosine   but you could ask your doctor about it and you don’t want to take it if you are on an antidepressant it would be interesting to research it and talk to the doctor about it.

Lois:  One of the other things we know is that if something as simple as tryptophan it took a beating a while back because of the way it was constructed and marketed.  It is the precursor for serotonin and it is found in milk, a few years ago one of the things we would recommend for insomnia is a warm glass of milk.

Jill:  Why warm?

Lois:  Because it would trigger the tryptophan and it is also in turkey meat and it is an important amino acid as a precursor for serotonin.

Jill:  That is one of the most interesting thing, how we get it in our food source.  What about the supplementation, one of the things at Breakthrough is that we want all those coming through the door what they should be taking in to help with recovery.  We have five things to talk about when we return from